Nice to see you again, Claire. Thank you so much for coming for another coaching session. The topic, what was the thing that you wanted to bring today?

I'd like to get more clarity around my business niche.

And that's your business niche as a coach, right?

As a coach.

Okay, okay. And a new topic for you or 1 that you've put hundreds hours of thinking on or?

I wouldn't quite say hundreds of hours of thinking, but it's 1 that keeps coming up and keeps coming back and keeps getting refined. And yeah, it's always there.

Always there, bubbling. So where are you on the, like, I have got no clue to the, I'm nearly settled with it continuum?

So if 0 was no idea and 10 was I'm completely clear, maybe 6.

Yeah, 6. And what does that 6 look like?

What do you mean? What does it look like?

Well, just just an overview of what it looks like or sounds like.

And it means that I I have a niche, but I don't think it is, whilst it's 1 that gives me passion, there's passion behind it, It's not 1, it's a very difficult niche to get any traction in as a business. [pause 2.8s] And I think that I could find a different niche that would give me more, [pause 2.6s] give me joy and traction.

Okay, okay. So the idea that the niche only responds to 1 of the 2 important needs for you the personal 1 as opposed to the commercial 1 okay

yeah

okay so where should we aim for Where do you want to be by the end of today's conversation?

I, I would love to have a clear idea of what my niche could be how to articulate it.

So if it's a 6 at the moment, you want 6 and a half or 9 and a half or?

It would be good to be at least an 8.

Okay okay so we're aiming for an 8.

So yeah so then I can maybe just go away and on upcoming holiday just have that percolating and maybe it does some more refining while I'm away.

Okay, okay and taking that to the whole of the day, what would it mean to you taking like a sort of an 8 bit more clarity away from today?

It would allow me to have more focus in the my daily activities.

Okay, say a bit more about that. Is it getting in the way then somehow?

Yeah, I think it is because I know the 1 that I've got is not necessarily working and yet without having clarity on what a new 1 could be, there's this sort of keep getting pulled down different paths by ideas that come up.

Okay, okay. So there is sort of, there's like overspilling impacts on not having it. Okay, okay. And I mean, I know we had this coaching session planned, but why particularly now, like the niche topic is coming up for you?

Mainly because I've joined a business networking group and I feel like it's a really good opportunity to get some real traction. I can feel that is that traction is potentially there. But if I'm not, if I'm not clear about what I'm asking for, I can't expect the people in the room to understand what they might be helping me go and find.

Okay, okay. All right. So so you want to be able to explain it well enough clearly so other people can then report it on and explain it

well.

Yeah. Oh, okay, okay. And apart from today and mulling it over when you're off on holiday with the family, how much energy have you got towards that you wanna put into this?

Lots.

Lots, okay, Okay. Priority over other things that you're doing? Like, where does that sit in the high, medium, low priority?

I

think it's pretty high priority, because if I don't sort it out, then everything else, it's what triggers everything else. So everything else is kind of almost pointless if I'm not clear on it.

Okay,

okay. That's quite a strong statement, isn't it? Almost pointless.

Yeah, yeah, it is. But it's kind of like being a headless chicken not knowing where to run, you know, believing you've got a whole ton of things to do. But I really feel that I need to be headed in a very clear direction without distraction.

Okay, okay. So from headless chicken to clear direction without distraction. Right. Is that the 6 to 8 thing that you're talking about moving from there?

That makes it sound worse than that. But yeah.

All right. Okay. Well, it's very,

very headless chicken. But yeah.

Oh, we get the metaphor. All right, fab. So do you know what you need to work on? I mean, today, do you know where the area of focus for you that we can talk about?

I believe that up till now, my niche has been more centered around [pause 3.1s] women. There have been moments when it's been more women entrepreneurs, for example. [pause 2.4s] But I feel like it needs to the purchaser of coaching would have been maybe an individual. And I feel like there's more potential in targeting business owners when, where the business is 345 plus people.

Okay. Okay. So we're talking about the target market. Okay. Yeah. So what would it help to just like get away from your perspective, like get a few basics just clear. So what what you mean by a niche and what you see the benefit of an issue? I mean, you know, there's a lot written about it, isn't it? Of course. So how do you define a niche? What does that mean?

A niche is a very specific group of people that you target your activities on. I think the best visual representation I've seen of that has been like a bullseye type graphic. And the idea being the more specific you can get on who you're targeting, and the more people that have that need will naturally come towards you. And then the other people that are in sort of outer rings will still come, but you're communicating very clearly on the need on how you meet the needs of that very specific niche.

Okay, so how you meet the needs of that niche. So how does that sort of change, like your messaging and how you present yourself? If you're really clear on that?

It makes it much more powerful because it's [pause 2.3s] probably getting to like a real more deep visceral feeling that somebody has to reach out.

OK, OK, so a bit more about that visceral feeling.

Just like a full body need that something has to change in somebody's life because they're feeling pain and they know something's got to change but they don't really know how to do it.

Okay. So when you say that, are you speaking to, are you speaking to

it's more of the personal needs. But when you're talking to a business, particularly a small business, there's probably a bit of a blurring. It's talking about the needs of the individual and then the needs of them as a business owner and as an employer of others.

Yes, yes, okay. So does this mean that when you really define your niche that you will then tailor your services, you know, your, the, the coaching offer, whether it's one-to-one or group

or

or, And in what way would you do that?

So it would start with which sorts of companies it allows me to find and target, how I would start a conversation with them, what key points are coming up in the whole communication strategy, and then also in how I present the proposition, and then also how that is priced as well. So it basically would, it triggers the whole of the marketing strategy.

Okay, okay, so you need to be really clear on it. And, and you talked about not having a niche. And the analogy used was a headless chicken 1. Yeah. So let's just really sort of put that to bed. Like, is it your sort of your, your settled belief that unless you have a niche, you can't really evolve and grow? And I asked that question, it's not a leading question, but I asked that question because there are some coaches don't believe you need a niche, you know, it's a bit, it's 1 of those raging debates, isn't it? So but, but where are you standing on it?

So, when I listen to a marketing expert, or I read a marketing book, they all say that you need to have a niche and, and you need to be specific. [pause 2.1s] My experience so far is that I do question whether that is a need. [pause 2.7s] For example, if I think about conversations I've just had even today and in this past week and I tell somebody what I can do and how I can take them from here to here through coaching today, the lady I was speaking to said, Oh, so could you do that for couples? And I'm like, Yeah, you could. Yes, it's it would work very well for couples. And then it's like, well, yeah, and it would work really well for teenagers. And yes, it would work really well for a guy the other yesterday who's, you know, struggling at work and in relationships, so it would help him. So it's like it actually, depending on who you're speaking to, there's always an application. It doesn't, which is why it bothers me that you have to say, I will only target solicitors in Tunbridge, Wales.

Yes. So let's pick up on that 1 word you just used, which was only. Yeah. But also the word target, because what you're talking here about, you're having these inbound meetings, right? You're going to be in an hour where people will approach you and or you'll meet people at the school gate or in business type of meetings. So is it that you will only work with those people or Is it that you will only work with those people or is it that you will only target those people?

It's the latter. I would only target and I would work with anybody.

Yeah.

If they if they have a need and they can afford it and they're willing to put the work in.

OK, so so so my I mean, I'm a bit with you on the sort of the sceptical on the on the niche. My niche challenge is. When someone looks at your niche message which says I work with this group and someone says yeah but I'm in that group how will you work with me because you only work with that group? How can you sort of manage that without it making sound like you're going to compromise?

My answer to that sort of question is that I have a structure and a framework that I use as a coach. But there is no rigid rigid rigidity in that. And every single human being on the planet is different and has had different experiences. And therefore you can't predict the start of working with somebody how that is going to evolve.

So

you can have some structure around it. But I think it's naive to think that it's not a factory production line. You have to be flexible and deal with, you know, you could start a coaching relationship with somebody and in month 1, [pause 2.0s] their issue is about work and in month 2, they might suddenly have lost somebody or be in the middle of a divorce. You don't say I'm going to carry on dealing with the work issue.

Okay, so you're demonstrating with your coaching skills that you've got flexibility and you've got yeah that type of approach. Okay and still when they when they say yeah but it's only but it's only you know women or small business owners who are women and I'm not in that category. How do you and they say how would you adapt your coaching or even what why wouldn't they just trot off to someone whose niche is them?

Say that again please.

Sorry yeah it was it was not a very well phrased question. I'm not quite sure what I was asking. No, I suppose what I'm wondering is, you know, why, if they know you niche with these people, why wouldn't, why wouldn't people then just go and find someone else who is their niche?

Exactly. Which to me then just feels like pointless. I've lost opportunity because the opportunities are hard enough to find.

Yes. Okay. So you want to have a niche, right? But you don't want to reject other interested parties who don't fit in your criteria?

Yeah, and I think there's another element to it is that marketeers talk about when you niche, they talk about a lot of socio-demographic profiles. And actually the sort of coaching I like to do generally goes a little bit deeper than that and goes a bit more inside of why you might think that will be who you are. So it's more a feeling based thing, rather than [pause 2.1s] the not. So it's more about I will help you go from feeling stuck to feeling fulfilled. Yeah. Rather than saying, you know, if you're 45 female with 2 teenagers, I will help you learn how to be a great parent.

Yeah. Okay. Okay. So, so, all right. So you're, you're reading that the niche, how it's described is, yeah. What did you say? So can associate demographics. So it's like a category of person, but what you're saying is you see it more as a life stay or an internal something like that. And can that not equally be a niche? I work with people who are in this place, you know, who are looking for change, who are whatever.

I think it can, but then I hear people saying, oh, but that's not specific enough. How do you find those people?

Yeah, okay. And what do you think? [pause 9.2s] I don't

know, the only way to find people is to keep talking to people.

Yeah, but what do you think about that? Is it specific enough?

Potentially specific enough for a, like, B2C, I would call it a B2C approach, but maybe not for a B2B approach.

Okay. [pause 2.7s] And if you were going to take that out into a B2C type of environment, what is it that you'd be saying? How would you explain this sort of personal growth or overcoming stuckness?

And I help take you from being stuck to fulfilled or learning how to have a better work-life balance to go from doing to being slowing down to speed up, having more confidence.

So these things, right, they do trip off your tongue, don't they? Like, just do that, just do that. But you know how hard the work is, and you know actually how skillful a coach has to be to do that. So, [pause 2.5s] how, like, Tell me about your connection with that stuff that you've just shared. As in wanting to help people in that way. How important is it to you?

Very important. [pause 5.4s] Because we live in a society where we believe that [pause 2.6s] we have to do, do, do, go, go, go the whole time to prove to prove ourselves to prove that we're successful to other people. And that's not a blame. That's just the way that things, societies evolved. And it's not, it's not a sustainable way of living. And we believe that we have to keep working until we reach a point of burnout. [pause 2.5s] And it's, well, I shouldn't say it's work, maybe it's worse for women, but it's pretty bad for men as well. But women believe they have to have a successful career, be a great parent and run a household. Well, each of those individual things that can be a full-time job. You can't, there's not enough hours in the day or enough energy in a human being to do all 3 of those jobs well without sacrificing something somewhere.

Okay. So when you're saying this stuff, Claire, like how much, how much emotion is behind this, right? And how much energy is behind what you're saying?

All the energy that I have is behind it.

Okay. Okay. Yeah. So you've brought like a marketing question, haven't you here about how do I get a niche? How can I present it when you're next week at BNI? But here, this is a really personal question for you, isn't it? How can I be like the authentic coach I wanna be and support people with this real stuckness? So let's talk here about this paradox of trying to niche but trying to be very, very personal. [pause 2.3s] Yeah. [pause 2.1s] This is it, isn't it? This is the start, isn't it?

Yeah. [pause 7.0s] So my, my thoughts are that, well, people, When it comes down to it, people will only hear what they want to hear and you can't, I can't control how they interpret what I say. That is, that I know to be true. And I think that [pause 4.4s] If the words I use connect with somebody at a deep enough level, it doesn't really matter who the niche is. [pause 2.7s] Because the words, the words and how it makes somebody feel is is more important than me saying I'm a coach for solicitors. Yes. Okay.

So it's starting to sound like the niche is not about who you work with. But the niche is what people need, why they might want to do this work, where they're at, all of those type of things. So, so almost like any other of those questions apart from who?

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. Okay. So, so my question to you is, can that be a niche? Forget the who, but looking at the other words in the, you know, the the why and the when and the how and the what? Can that be the niche?

I believe, I believe it, I believe it can. The challenge, I don't know, I should challenge, I'm not sure if that's the right word, but when you come to implement that and you're reaching out to people, it, it just, it just means that you're not targeting anybody is you're talking about those feelings, and either it resonates with somebody or it doesn't. And I suppose arguably that's no different from saying are you a solicitor or not.

Okay. Okay. [pause 3.3s] So it sounds like when you've talked about this, like this, trying to be very precise, you are able to be precise, but you don't think it's going to maybe, you know, have the benefit you want.

Being precise on who the people are. I mean, I think there's a, the precision gives a [pause 3.0s] method to a implementation strategy. I'll start with solicitors, I'll move to accountants and you know that sort of gives it a focus. [pause 6.4s] I think yeah, [pause 2.3s] lost my thought.

Okay well we'll pick it up a bit because I mean, you know, what you're talking about here feel like 2 very different things, you know, like targeting businesses and business needs, but helping people have like their personal shifts and personal transformations. Can you do both? Or at least can you present that you're doing both?

You can and that's probably what a marketer would say is about that that is how you become specific.

Yeah.

And where are you with that?

Taking an example of solicitors, because we were talking about that, is that [pause 2.7s] if there are 100 solicitors and you reach out to 100 solicitors, only 10 might respond and of those only 1 message might resonate with 1. So it just means that the, yeah, [pause 3.1s] you still got to always speak to lots of different, you've still got to, you know, the effort is the same.

Yes.

I suppose that's why, I mean, yeah. I mean, does it help? [pause 6.8s] I know there are more people in Tamil Nadu than there are solicitor firms. [pause 3.6s] You know, so. [pause 2.2s] And if somebody wants to refer you, they'll refer you.

So what I'm wondering is, if you do choose a demographic, the way the marketers recommend, then what are you saying you're doing? What is the service that you're offering? I mean, are you going to be offering like this sort of personal transformation service? You're saying, I work with solicitors who want to shift their lives, or is it something different?

Or is

it something different?

So I think if it was a solicitor as an individual, it would be help shift their lives. If it's a solicitor who's [pause 2.9s] an employer or who has responsibility for a team of people, then the challenge has another layer on it, which is, how can I make sure that my team is happy that they're working together and communicating properly that I'm instilling for them that they all have a good work life balance and it doesn't impact the productivity and performance of the team? And how can I get, how can I work with this hybrid challenge that that goes on and do all of that and still be profitable as a business?

Okay, okay. So it's about the idea that the coach will support personal well-being to impact on business productivity.

Yeah.

Okay. Okay.

Personal being and yeah, I suppose in that is like life skills of, you know, communication, etc.

And how, how clear do you think your messaging is around that at the moment?

And that's something I haven't implemented yet, that yet that's still in conceptual phases.

Okay, okay, so it's a bit early for that. All right, so I mean there's a lot here, there's a lot of thinking isn't there, and the question that I've got coming up throughout today is that is I'm thinking about that the adjective that you add on before you describe yourself as a coach. I mean, because you'll know when you go to these breakfast networking places, there's loads of coaches as often. Or I think some of them have always done that. You can only have 1 coach, whatever. Some people call themselves business coaches, some leadership coaches, some life coach, whatever. What's a word that you add on in front of your coach, if at all?

So In my chapter, I'm not the business coach because the business coach is a business coach. I'd potentially argue is a business mentor. Yeah, then a business coach, but that's just semantics, as you know. [pause 2.4s] My category that I've been given is life coach, [pause 2.8s] which I have some resistance and objection to because I don't believe it's the same thing. [pause 2.7s] So I would describe myself normally or currently as a mindset, mindfulness and mental fitness coach.

Okay,

lots of M's.

Lots of M's. There's a lots of M's. Okay. So then what? It's all good. It's all good. You teach what? Do they say to you, what sports out there?

Not yet, no. Not yet,

well, that's good. All right, so let's really look at this because that like how much work did it take you to come up with that? I mean, I know that these are things that you do, of course, but really, really getting attuned with that and coming up with those 3

adjectives, how much work did it take you to come up with that? I mean I know these are things that you do of course but really really getting attuned with that and coming

up with those 3 adjectives how much work did it take to decide those?

Oh not not not that long actually because I've had so many different iterations of these things that [pause 3.7s] yeah not I don't it an evolution to get to that.

Okay okay and when you say it how clear do you think it yeah people might

be a bit what because there's 3 words but how clear do you think it is?

People might be a bit, well, because there's 3 words, but how clear do you think it is on what you're likely to be good at and likely to be doing to the average person out there?

I don't think it's... [pause 2.4s] I think it sparks curiosity more than clarity.

Yeah.

It definitely sparks curiosity. Yeah. [pause 2.0s] Which is good anyway, because then it means I can engage in a conversation.

Yes. OK. So I'm thinking, you know, I'm sitting there around the table at the breakfast networking and I'm sitting between the business coach or the business mentor, right? And then the mindset, mindfulness and mental fitness coach. And I chat with you for 5 minutes and I chat with you for 5 minutes. How will it feel different? How will those 2 conversations feel different?

So the business coach would say, well, what are your goals and how much revenue do you want to make and how many clients will that be? And blah, blah, blah. And I would say, OK, so what does it feel like to be successful in your business? And [pause 3.1s] what does who do you need to shop as a person for yourself, for your employees? How do you how do you look after yourself in your business? So he would be the business guy would be the, what do you need to do? And I would, I would be the, who do you need to be?

Okay. So the doing versus being, okay. Yeah. You know, it's not, it's not for me to evaluate at all. But doesn't this all sound like a niche? Doesn't it sound like, you know, a style, a way of working that is massively different from maybe over there?

Yeah. [pause 2.5s] It's massively different. Yeah. But but but but and therefore, potentially uncomfortable and unfamiliar for people because they don't, [pause 2.9s] they haven't experienced that before. They haven't experienced that before.

OK. So that means what they're not ready to embrace it, they need something before they can.

It generally means that I giving them an experience of what it's like to be coached by me is 1 of the first steps.

Yes.

On their journey.

OK, OK. And then what happens Generally?

Generally speaking, [pause 3.1s] they have money objections.

Okay. Okay. So that's another conversation, isn't

it?

That's a whole other conversation. Okay. So, I mean, I'm sitting here and I'm listening to you and I'm hearing you describe really well what you do, who you do it for, how it's different to, to what other types of coaches do. And I'm wondering what's, what is stopping you from saying, this is my niche. This is how I work. And then worrying a bit later on about the who is I focus on.

Yeah, I mean, and that's exactly what I did in my meeting today. Yeah. And. [pause 4.1s] I mean, everybody listened in half a minute.

And

so I don't know, maybe it gave them more clarity. Yeah.

And for you, because what you wanted, you wanted something that respected you like your, your, if you like your integrity as a coach wanting to do this important work, but also, also the potential commercial outcomes for it. Where does this sit now?

It helps,

I suppose it gives me more confidence that it's okay to say, to be less tangible [pause 3.4s] and to talk about feelings, going from this feeling to that feeling, because I do think that in some respects that is relatable. [pause 3.8s] I suppose the element that's missing is a B2C versus a B2B type approach.

Okay. And is that something you can work on?

Yes, because in my head, it's kind of almost like [pause 2.3s] got a few boxes prepared and depending on how the conversation with somebody goes and what they're interested in, I just pull a certain proposition into view. Yes.

Okay. So we've been talking about this for about 35 minutes and we were on 6 and headless chicken and you were shifting, you wanted to shift to 8 and something that you could carry on mulling over when you're away with the kids. Where are you at now with this?

Maybe a 7.

Okay, so what shifted, What shifted in this last 35 minutes?

The confidence to be okay with [pause 4.1s] not having to be very as specific around the social demographics of who this person, what this person looks like.

Okay, okay. So more, less focusing on the who, more focusing on the bit, the what and the how. Okay, okay. So let's reflect then perhaps some steps and things that you want to take because yeah, well we've got halfway where you wanted to get to right we've got from 67 you are aiming at 8 and plus so what ongoing reflections do you want to do now over this next little while?

So I think 1 is to very clearly articulate all these pain points and where people can go to. So I'm using the right language for that, But maybe to work on [pause 2.6s] the business owner that has employees aspects that they've got that additional layer that maybe they have a they have to think about their team and their bottom line. And the solution I offer could be as bottom line effective as a business coach.

Yes. So again, the solution could be as bottom line effective as a business coach.

So a business coach might help you come up with a strategy of what you need to do that would help you be more profitable. Whereas my approach would help your employees communicate better work and be more productive and efficient. And because of that, that they the bottom line is better, you're more profitable.

OK, so a different way to get to that. OK. Yeah. So and what specific things do you think you're going to do to carry on refining this message and working it out over the forthcoming time?

I think it would be useful to have to create some different avatars actually, 2 or 3 different avatars of target ideal clients, and to articulate those, that their needs and then what proposition could [pause 3.1s] meet those needs.

Okay, okay. So you're identifying a different benefit. You're saying there's some different avatars that you could do. How are you going to measure whether whether these steps are going to be helpful for you?

I can test them out with people. [pause 2.3s] Ask for their thoughts and reflections on them.

And as we come towards the end, how much energy have you got? How much energy has what you talked about today given you to carry on progressing this?

Well, I suspect after my holiday, I'll have a whole lot more energy. These are hard things to do and to keep doing and it's a constant refinement and there is no magic bullet and there is no quick win. So I'm I'm excited to try the more B2B approach. [pause 2.3s] So I have I definitely have energy for that And I want to make the networking work because the way that that networking is set up, there are measures in place for me to know exactly how much revenue I'm getting from it.

Yes.

Which is a really big plus, actually.

That's really helpful, isn't it? Fabulous. Well, thank you. Thank you, Claire. And I do appreciate, I think you're right, there is no magic bullet with this and it is and it takes hard work and clearly you are doing hard work and you know and I've sort of pushed you to do quite hard work today so so thank you for doing 1 of that. How do you feel as we get to the end of this?

Good it's always really helpful to talk to somebody and to explore those ideas because it's much easier to do it with somebody than to do it on your own for sure.

Yeah, yeah, right. The churn of it. Well, fab. Well, listen, I mean, I hope it goes well and I hope that this evolution leads you to where you want to get to. And, you know, I admire your spirit. I think that, you know, lots of coaches go through this and we all struggle in 1 way or another, and you're keeping going, which is great to see. So good luck with it, and we'll chat about it more next time.

Perfect, thank you.

Thanks a lot.